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Need to buy a new camera kit... help

Discussion in 'The Photography Lounge' started by Chris Slade, Mar 30, 2017.

  1. Phil Rose

    Phil Rose Member

    I agree with Andrew and CJ. If I was starting over I'm not sure I could rationalize my camera. There are some amazingly good small cameras out there that are more than adequate unless one is printing large or cropping heavily. I've actually gotten some great shots from my cellphone and some of the newer cells are just awesome.

    I'm more drawn to landscapes so my criteria are different than yours. A lot depends on what your needs are. Be critical and honest in the analysis of your needs and I'm sure that you'll find something that works.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  2. Chris Slade

    Chris Slade Active Member War Zone Member Top Poster

    I agree the DSLR is dead. I would anticipate Canon and Nikon making mirror-less replacements that work with all existing glass for their DSLR cameras. Hard to imagine anything else.

    Also I wonder if in the mirror-less world if everything from enthusiast cameras to pro models will all now become full frame? Is there still a need for any type of crop camera?
  3. Chris Slade

    Chris Slade Active Member War Zone Member Top Poster

    So these are the options from a local shop if I follow CJ's lead off the cliff.

    OM-D-M5 body only $699

    OM-D E-M10 II with 14-42mm II R $699 This looks to be a $450 lens if I am reading the site correctly.

    So I assume the second camera, is well much less of a camera.
  4. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

    Canon and Nikon are in tough shape. Its not as simple as just making a mirrorless body because the distance between the sensor and the rear element of the lens would change so NONE of their lenses would work if they started from scratch. Otherwise they'd have to keep the same depth which defeats the purpose of going mirrorless. Or they would all need an adapter for every lens, which is not very elegant. I honestly think at least one of the two will go under.
  5. Phil Rose

    Phil Rose Member

    There is a premium on good glass for FF so, if there is going to be an "enthusiast" class of camera maybe crop sensors make sense. Cellphones are eating the bottom end.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  6. Chris Slade

    Chris Slade Active Member War Zone Member Top Poster

    Whoa bold bold statement CJ. Bookmark this thread, if that happens you are the guru.
  7. Jay Brown

    Jay Brown Well-Known Member Donor Top Poster

    Sony has had a tight-hold on the Mirrorless market, both APSC and Full Frame. Nikon has made a few blunders in the past few years, releasing items to the public that nobody wanted, or simply not releasing some devices after reports of their financial status being really poor.

    It's not a cheap task to change out your entire product and move on to a new system. I've read or viewed videos where some Pro Photographers left Canon or Nikon to go to Sony Mirrorless, but Changing the Glass alone, if you can afford it, would bankrupt the average user.

    Like Phil stated, cell phones are eating into this market, and the Social Aspect is what's killing Sony, Nikon, and Canon.

    At the airshow I attended over the weekend, we had a conversation about new models coming out. I own a D3300, and a Pro Photographer's father owns a 3400. The only change between these two models was the Wireless upgrade for the 3400, thus making it more "Social Media" friendly. That's it, and this is the case for the 5xxx series as well.

    I have a Sigma 150-600mm Lens on order and this model along with the Tamron equivalent has allowed for Enthusiast to afford good glass without having to shell out Thousands of Dollars for the Nikon, Sony, and Canon counterparts. This Lens will work for both APS-C and Full Frame cameras, and this may allow me to move up to a Full Frame without having to shell out hundreds of extra Dollars because all I will need now is the body.
  8. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

    There are so many problems. Nikon just reported an "extraordinary loss" financially.

    Canon and Nikon are too slow to move and are terrified of making a quality mirroless product. They don't want to kill the sacred cow so they're literally turning out shitty mirrorless products on purpose. Nikon even made theirs a 1" sensor to really gimp it. Neither of them make any "pro quality" APS-C glass and its been proven that full frame glass on a crop sensor is less sharp.

    Canikon's legacy is an anchor around their neck. That's why Fuji and Sony are stepping in. Sony's lens lineup still sucks but at least they're making some quality APS-C specific lenses. Fuji is APS-C only until recently (the have a medium format mirrorless which is totally different). So Fuji, Olumpus, and Panasonic are all making lenses for a SINGLE sensor size and a single technology. Sony still has one foot in DSLR and Canon and Nikon, as I already said, are literally afraid to make a good mirrorless camera.

    There are technical and non-technical reasons why I think one of the big two will fail. Sony is making the best sensors right now. Olympus, Panasonic and naturally, Sony, all use Sony senors. I believe Nikon uses at least 50% Sony sensors as well. Overall 42% of the sensor market is Sony. This includes DSLRs, not just mirrorless sensors. So Nikon can't even make good enough sensors for their own cameras.

    The market for true pro-level (i.e. full-frame) SLRs is limited. As I mentioned above, neither Canon or Nikon are making good lenses specifically designed for APS-C. So you get no lens size or cost advantage if you want a good lens and shoot APS-C and as I mentioned before, full frame lenses lose sharpness on APS-C sensors. So good job paying $2100 on that 70-200 f/2.8 and its less sharp on your crop body.

    Canon and Nikon say fuck you after the sale. Their firmware support is non-existent. Fuji is king here and has cultivated a lot of loyalty by treating the camera OS more like smart phone app and making updates that add functionality or address user reported issues. Olympus and Panasonic are fairly good here as well. Canon and Nikon, fuck off buddy, buy a new camera.

    Canon is just blindly plowing forward. I watched a youtube video about Nikon's extraordinary loss issue by a respected photography youtuber. He went over a bunch of things he thinks Nikon needs to do to save themselves. He didn't even address Canon. He basically said "they're doing what they're doing and not listening to anyone."

    I also have to reiterate what a hot mess 4k video is on Canon and Nikon right now. Go find some articles. Its appalling IMO.

    Fuji, Olympus and Panasonic have captured something I think. They recognize that just because you don't shoot full frame, doesn't mean you want to shoot plastic f/5.6 lenses. Sony... christ people, fix your lens lineup. It is truly terrible. Even on Sony forums people bitch about this.

    A few more thoughts. The camera market in general is suffering due to smart phones. Camera sales have plummeted. Point and shoot is dead. Forget it. An iPhone 7 is literally better than many point and shoot cameras. The overall market is tight enough that I don't see everyone surviving.

    Canon and Nikon will never merge. It would be just as likely that Ohio State and Michigan would form a joint football team. So one of them will go under or merge with a smaller player.

    ALL of these companies do something besides cameras but IMO, Olympus and Nikon have the least buffer. Fuji, Panasonic, Canon and Sony could decide to buffer their camera business with other operations. Nikon went from a $161M PROFIT (not revenue, profit) to a $79M loss in one year.

    So if I ask myself, who is best positioned to make cameras that are not huge, use lenses specifically designed to work as a system, make a camera OS that works more like a smart phone, etc... all things I think are needed to survive... I'd put money on everyone but Canon and Nikon.

    If I switched systems (which I thought about doing) Sony and Fuji were on my list. I wouldn't touch Canon or Nikon with a 10ft pole.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2017
  9. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

    I can't seem to find a good comparison between the E-M10II and the E-M5. There is an E-M5II now and that's what pops up in comparison searches. I can tell you the main differences will be build quality and number of physical controls and custom function buttons. The E-M5 series is the entry level pro series. Its weather sealed and much more robust. I owned an E-10 mark 1 and now have the E-M5II and it is a much sturdier body.

    If you're comparing both Mark II and that was just a typo, that's different. The 14-42 kit lens is $299. So you're talking $400 for the EM10 II vs $700 for the EM5. The EM5 II usually goes for $1000 so it does look like maybe you're looking at the mark 1.
  10. Chris Slade

    Chris Slade Active Member War Zone Member Top Poster

    CJ you are right the 5 II is $999
  11. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

    After reading back a few of my posts yesterday I'd clarify a few things.

    I'm a big fan of m4/3, MFT, M43, whatever but don't consider myself a fanboy. I believe I mentioned I recently strongly considered switching systems. I am a pretty big mirrorless fan and as such, don't find anything Nikon and Canon are doing to be compelling. I do like what Sony is doing and they'll get there with the lens lineup.

    I've also watched a lot of really technical photography videos on sensor size relative to lens specs (i.e. aperture and focal length). With that said, I've personally kind of committed that I wouldn't jump ship to an APS-C camera. I think M4/3 is way too close in performance. Tony Northrup has a great video on the physics of sensor size and does real world ISO testing. Basically the top full frame sensors have about the same amount of noise at ISO 6400 as an M4/3 does at ISO 400. That is CRAZY. But in that same test, APS-C produced the same amount of noise at about ISO 640. So as I said, I don't see the compelling difference between M4/3 and APS-C when it comes to noise and things like depth of field either don't really impact me day to day or can be overcome with focal length selection.

    BUT, there is still a BIG leap between both APS-C / M4/3 and full frame. Which given my preference for mirrorless, leaves Sony. So I'll be watching them closely, especially the likely A7III that will probably drop mid-year this year. Unfortunately I've heard negative things about the trio of consumer oriented f/1.8 lenses that Sony JUST released. I don't know if any of the problems can be fixed with firmware or not but it is frustrating to have them hit a better price point and then see all kinds of focusing problems being reported on Sony forums.
  12. Jay Brown

    Jay Brown Well-Known Member Donor Top Poster

    Jason Lanier is a photographer who uses Sony Mirrorless exclusively. He has a style of his own and takes great shots. Lighting is a biggie for him. He was using the A6000 early on and now uses A7 cameras with various lenses.

    Tony and Chelsea along with Photorec Ken, along with Kai, formerly of DigitalRev, all use various cameras for whatever Task they are performing. Lots of Canon and Nikon Full Frame use, while I see Tony and Chelsea use Sony A7 cameras as well.

    I think Jason Lanier was the only person I've seen use an A6000 (APS-C) for one of his Wedding Photo Shoots, and produced some great images.
  13. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

    There are successful working pros shooting every system, including M4/3. Olympus has their visionary program (Visionaries | Olympus), Tony and Chelsea now use M4/3 for all of their in studio video work. Working pros always have the luxury to buy whatever tool for the job. Most of us can't really support two full systems when you start factoring in lenses and accessories. Shooting pro-quality fashion and wedding on M4/3 is pretty popular in eastern Europe, Russia, and Asia.

    At the end of the day it all comes down to light. Under ideal conditions, all of these systems are essentially LITERALLY flawless. Its how they handle less than ideal conditions that matters and none of them are a clear winner in every category. Olympus has the best in body stabilization out there and it isn't even close. That's not fanboy talk. M4/3 in general does focus accuracy extremely well. Sony's low light noise is better than Canon and Nikon in most cases.

    On a related note, Tony Northrup recently encouraged Nikon to move to in body stabilization. It seems like what was once derided in comparison to optical image stabilization is now accepted as the preferred way to do it.
  14. Chris Slade

    Chris Slade Active Member War Zone Member Top Poster

    Stopping by the camera shop this afternoon I hope. Stay tuned.....
  15. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

    Be careful not to let the sales person sell you HIS favorite system.
  16. Chris Slade

    Chris Slade Active Member War Zone Member Top Poster

  17. Chris Slade

    Chris Slade Active Member War Zone Member Top Poster

    Screw the salesman, I bought CJ's favorite system.
  18. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

    Nice. Now let's see some shots from the camera, not of it. That is one of the few lenses I don't own. Let me know what you think!
  19. Chris Slade

    Chris Slade Active Member War Zone Member Top Poster

    So far that lens is all I own. No bodies available locally. I may be picking up a second lens today, if it comes in today. Stay tuned.
    Probably order the body online today. I don't know why I even tried to buy locally. They stock nothing. It was a waste of time really, what a shame. I told them you are basically telling me to go buy this online, they said yeap.
  20. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

    Yeah, I was thinking about picking up a pocketable camera for a vacation and I went to my local camera store which IS pretty good and they don't have it. I guess I'll go Amazon.

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